Provocative? Perhaps? Acurate.... ?

From: http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2008/02/29/...

"...Reacting to those reports, Bardakoglu, who is chairman of the Department of Religious Affairs, told the daily Sabah: “A team of 80 are scanning all existent hadith. For example, words humiliating women are attributed to the prophets. We are combing through such interpretations. We will publish six volumes. However, what we are doing is not reform on Islam… we are not reforming Islam; we are reforming ourselves, our own way of religiosity.” ‘...

... The project was well described two years ago in this Washington Post article by Mustafa Akyol, who gave a few examples of passages due to be cut:

“Women are imperfect in intellect and religion.”
“The best of women are those who are like sheep.”
“If a woman doesn’t satisfy her husband’s desires, she should choose herself a place in hell.”
“If a husband’s body is covered with pus and his wife licks it clean, she still wouldn’t have paid her dues.”
“Your prayer will be invalid if a donkey, black dog or a woman passes in front of you.”
Felix Körner, a German Jesuit priest at Ankara University, is quoted in many of the reports. He has been studying the “Ankara School” of modern Islamic theology for several years and published a book about it in 2005 called Revisionist Koran Hermeneutics in Contemporary Turkish University Theology. Note the adjective “revisionist” — not revolutionary or radical...."

To my sons: 2/23/08 - Went to a memorial service today as Phyllis died on Wednesday.

Phyllis was 83 and a character. She was a feminist - a conserve, re-cycle, repair, environmentalist, a tree hugger and earned 3 degrees, one of which was divinity - she became a Minister in later life. Phyllis first left the area family home in 1944 to join the Army (at 18) - her brothers being too young to join up for WW11.

Her poems were published locally: 'Come Dance With Me' quoted from in her service notes:

A red leaf fell today,
fell
with a soft whisper
at my feet,
And oh, it's hard to speak
of what it's falling meant to me.

Blessing:
Be loved, beloved,
your Godde sets great store by you.
Let yourself know it in your heart of hearts,
and in every bone, and fibre, and tissue.
Be loved, and never let the knowing go.

And Death Wishes:
I'd like to die a natural sort of death----
fall flat while walking the river path,
silent beneath the breathing trees'
keel over as I tend my garden,
face planted amongst the carrots or potatoes.

Or perhaps be found sprawled over the bathroom basin,
having taken one last look with rueful affection
and steadfast acceptance
at mirrored evidence of all that time and I
have wrought together in these few decades....

Three people spoke and the memories heartfelt.

Needless to say the proceedings then took a decided turn when the Minister (sic) sang solo: 'He will walk with me...' (the jerk thought he was a Welsh tenor, definitely NOT) and then proceeded to rehash, interjected with bizarre side quotes, the qualities expressed earlier attributable to Phyllis at considerable and ponderous length - as if to somehow affirm, for the congregation, that the creator would accept his double digit IQ accolades, whereas theirs’ were just notes on a life. Such a pompous prick, totally absent comprehension of Godde - religion is so fuckin’ creepy at times! I left as he finished, moving seamlessly into the Lord's Prayer. Religious patronage!

No crosses, prayers or religion at my send off, promise? Will just simply return to the stars, absent human consciousness.


Dearest Phyllis said it all in her poems; the rest is really just dust!

Hence my sympathy for you: the last prophet, the true god, Christ is bogus - all comparative and steeped in elitism & vanity, and Islam actually 'regressive' in religious evolution as woman not equal to man - in all communication, a fact you refuse to address? Evangelicals similarly elitist, as are Catholics. Could ask: if all are on the same page, similar turf, why the angst and competition for exclusivity? Hairs split to no good purpose?

Again, the intellectual power of Muggeridge and Campbell impaired by age results in grasping at religion's straw-man for a measure of salvation (vanity: purpose?). What is salvation but a myth of the mind - for something extraordinary in an 'after life' as this 'here and now' life so mundane and ordinary? Delusion! Our lot in life as we age and realize we are truly alone? Have been practicing 'alone' deliberately and studying the phenomenon, its very interesting.

And as an evolutionist, simply reject the notion of divinity in people but accept intuition as evolution and the inevitability of faith as a human fear-rationalization - our fight or flight reflex, intellectualized, from antiquity. Strip it down all the way from the Burgess Shale: http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/sci_tech/high...
And Stephen J. Gould's 'life is a crapshoot' worth reviewing: http://brembs.net/gould.html

A loving god - free will has mankind as the pariah of the planet, only a Mother could love, overlooking such obvious shortcomings? And a loving god has deigned one group superior to all others (the Jews hold this as their creed), so Machiavellian and perverse, an elitist hereafter - not a good outcome for mankind on the wrong page, I would expect? And why I have such utter contempt for apostasy - slavery to a belief from birth denies freedom of thought and free-will: man's birthright? Go to your bedlam, in peace.

Would not take on the Bull? Alternate strategies: Sing him to sleep? Throw sand in his eyes? Or in the case of religions: absent intellectual prowess, build a big protection fence, scripture! Absolute human vanity of course.

What I accept about religion is that it is an individual not a group pursuit: "a matter of faith!" Period!

The agnostic wonders at the scope of man and his Universe - we know we are witness! A larger force than we can comprehend is at work here, we just don't call it a name, pretend it is definable in human terms - the Universe, discovered so far, has no reality capable of supporting the plethora of species here on Earth, a unique planet cruising a relatively small insignificant sun.

Interesting that Malcolm Muggeridge 'found' religion in his later years (losing his faculties must have stressed such an intellect?): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_Muggeridge and Joseph Campbell also became devout after a lifetime of enquiry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Campbell

Joe documented the Virgin birth in numerous ancient religions - women venerated in most religions as Mother Earth, not so in Islam - status 60% of a man's value, for shame!

You have my sympathy.

Well, Chris, there has to be an overall reality to our existence, wouldn't you agree? There is a truth, or rather, there has to be a truth and so i would argue that our reality is something that we should know and are fully capable of knowing. I think it is your turn to "cop out," isn't being agnostic like sitting on the fence waiting or rather hoping that someone will point you in the right direction? (that's based on the assumption that you agree there is truth)

If you think about my statement of God being the creator of everything, including time and space, why is it delusional to further state that He is not subject to the His own laws? i think that is a totally rational statement!

is a car manufacturer bound my the mechanics and physics of the car? No, it wouldn't make sense. So, likewise, God is not part of His creation and cannot be part of it.

I agree when you say that Christian theology is messed up, it is clearly a mish-mash of all kind of man made nonsense. However, the Islamic understanding of God is very clear:

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only!
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not nor is He begotten.
And there is none like unto Him. (Qur'an 112)

Simple.

Firmly agnostic! You are clearly delusional, such a cop out '... not subject to any...'' Reminds me of the Catholic Holy-Ghost BS, i.e. inexplicable, and they want to keep it that way as they had to invent a complete shroud of secrecy around crap they don't understand? Jesus Christ venerated by 2.2 billion to Islam's 1.3 billion - they have your BS outnumbered with their BS.

Posit the 'dilemma' - a Greek construct - analogy a charging Bull! Which horn will you take: Catholic of Muslim? Both will do you in, so best to look for a better solution as there is no mystery in 1,000 lbs of high energy anger coming directly at you!

"You don’t have to leave this world to understand humanity’s simple conundrum!" i agree with you on that, Chris :) but the answer to all questions are found in the Qur'an and Ahadith and are freely available.

i am always amazed at the majority of scientists/physicists etc when they try to explain creation and philosophy (I'm not suggesting you were but...) it seems that they can't see the wood for the trees.

i will try to answer one of your questions you have posed (even if it may have been rhetorical)

Is God hiding among the stars or resident in our own molecule’s orbits?

Allah (God), is the Creator of time and space and therefore not subjected by any of His laws within time and space. Allah lives outside of the Creation in manor that befits His Majesty and Might. (that is one reason why it is impossible for Jesus (pbuh) to be God)

Chris, are you Christian?

Interesting that the Koran translation here, poetic? The finest technology of the West, the Hubble telescope, produced many of the images and DVG used extensively to simulate movement, orbits, etc. Have seen most of this in other media presentations. As in Christianity, God is seen/represented as out of this world. My father a UK mathematician, worked on the development of radar during the war that resulted in interception of B-1's raining down on London - they got good at it, then came the B-2! After the war, the radar equipment was packed and shipped to Israel - put to good use in 1948? My discipline is Physics with an electronics focus, my youngest son a math B.Sc. with an astrophysics leaning - the 'horror' of the Universe in our life-form terms is simply stupefying! Is God hiding among the stars or resident in our own molecule's orbits? What is consciousness? You don't have to leave this world to understand humanity's simple conundrum!