Baroness Warsi: Stop Polygamy

Equality of the sexes is a pre-requisite to living in a civilized society. If polygamy is ok, polyandry must be accepted as well.

Otherwise it is best to go live in an Islamic paradise wherever it is.

^^^Idiot

^^^Idiot

my comment was directed to Masood Azhar

@ Masood

Where do find Allah or Prophet Muhammad speak of the permissability of polyandry in the Qur’an or hadith? Nowhere! Polyandry is completely prohibited and to suggest that it is, in the manor you did, is completely wrong and very disrespectful.

@ G: Lets not resort to name calling.

@ Masood: Using your logic brother Masood should we let women lead the Jumma Khutba and lead men in Salah? Lets pull out the equality card as and when we feel the need to *try* and contradict the laws of Allah with man made laws.

In islam women and men are equal, but their roles in society is different. In some instances women are favoured over men and vice versa. This is not exclusive to Islam.

Also, you consider this a civilised society? So it is civilised to be married and have an affair with another woman/man. It is civilised to go out on a Friday/Saturday night, get drunk and behave worse than an animal?

It is civilised to perve on naked flesh? It is civilised to kill hundreds of thousands of people within the space of 8 years? It is civilised to make a mockery of a religion or prophet of a religion?

There is no such thing as a civilised society, period! Not in this day and age anyway. Although there may be civilised communities and villages.

@Hamza

I’m a muslim in 2009, not 1009. The Qur’an may not speak of something, or it may. Bottomline is that the law of the land today does not permit it. Respect that.

@Abdullah

Why shouldn’t women lead a Khutba? Why not indeed? Man-made laws can change with the morality of the times, while static books don’t. I respect the Qur’an for my personal spiritual needs, but I don’t consult it to see if I can take a car loan or watch a soap on the telly. That’s being daft.

It’s like this. The law of the land forbids it in the UK. If you want to go outside it’s norms and bounds, then get off the benefits system first. There’s no reason the state should put your two dozen kids on the dole because you wanted four wives.

Masood, so long as the law of the land does not contradict the Shariah then I’m fine with the law of the land. What you are saying is drop the command of Allah for some man made law, this is very dangerous and could even be detriment to ones imaan. So if the law of the land recognises homosexuality as a valid way of life, does this mean you do to?

Your right, imperfect man-made laws always change through time. Wheras the law of Allah never changes.

Islam is a complete way of life, not as and when my whims and desires require Islam. So yes, it would make sense to know whether Islam permits taking a Car loan, and if so what type of loan, if not, why not? What are the implications for taking a non-permitted loan and so on etc. Once a Sahaba was asked – what does your prophet teach you? His response was everything, even how to go and relieve oneself when answering the call of nature – or words to that effect.

Who said I/we are on the benefits system? For those that are on the benefits system I am the one that is funding them through the higher tax I am paying. Maybe those who don’t have any wives at all and have dozens of kids need to get off the benefit system? Its not a one way argument. Its that one-sided way of thinking that throws up flaws in your arguments all the time.

You seem to be generalising all muslims with the same opinion. Nobody here is saying X or Y wants 4 wives. The argument here is, how can a muslim woman who should know better look to try and defy what is made permissible by Allah through the shariah compliant conditions?

If X or Y wants 20 girlfriends/boyfriends – thats fine (according to the laws of the land). For a state that is not religious why is it even bothered about marriage as surely marriage is a union legislated from religion? Going back to the original argument if a man or woman can have more than one girlfriend, why cant he have more than one wife?

@Abdullah

Looks like we have fundamental differences-

1. Law of the land to me is paramount. The Qur’an is prone to interpretation in many many ways and can’t be considered a good source for legislation. If you gave a choice between living in a Sharia-based society vs. a western society like the UK, everyone, including muslims will choose the UK. If you don’t believe me, go and look at the long line of people outside the consulate at Clifton in Karachi or Ramna in Islamabad.

If the law recognizes homosexuality, so be it. I know many muslim brothers who are gay and they’re productive citizens of the country. So I don’t see the problem.

But What I know is that the law doesn’t sanction polygyny.

2. Something that doesn’t change through time is just rigid. IT’s not a positive thing. Doesn’t earn my vote.

3. I don’t need Islam to tell me what to do in every moment of my day. I need spiritual guidance and some broad humanitarian guidelines. That’s it. I’m highly educated and have a very good understanding on how to run my life ethically and productively. I’m a human being, not a robot. Instructions no, selective guidance yes.

4. You said “How can a muslim woman who should know better look to try and defy what is made permissible by Allah through the shariah compliant conditions?”

That’s personal choice. I like to think of Allah as a loving God, not a vengeful one.

5. You said “Going back to the original argument if a man or woman can have more than one girlfriend, why cant he have more than one wife?”

The problem is that Polygyny presents harmful effects, especially towards women and children, than monogamy. There are several scientific studies that support this position.

Here is an excerpt from one such study from the Univ of Rutgers:

”
- For example, women in polygamous marriages are at higher risk of low self-esteem, as well as depression, then women in non-polygamous relationships (Al-Krenawi, et al 2002; Slonim-Nevo and Al-Krenawi 2006).

- Other studies show that these women are also enjoy less marital satisfaction and more problematic mother-child relationships (Al-Krenawi and Slonim-Nevo 2008).

- In addition, further studies demonstrate that women in polygamous marriages are especially vulnerable to depression after becoming pregnant, as their husbands become more likely to turn their attention to their other wives (Fatoye, et al 2004; Ho-Yen, et al 2007).

- Women in polygamous marriages are typically subservient to their husbands who hold their wives primarily responsible for child-bearing (Gher 2008: 584). These women are often unable to exercise any control over the addition of new wives by their husbands, contributing to feelings of powerlessness and emotional abuse (Cook 2007; Hassouneh-Phillips 2001).

-Women may also lack control over their ability to seek employment, as several studies have found that only a small fraction of women in polygamous marriages work outside the home (Al-Krenawi 2000; Elbedour, et al 2002: 257; Peterson 1999).

-Furthermore, women in polygamous marriages have also been found to be at a greater risk of sexual diseases, including AIDS. For example, one study of 1,153 Nigerian men and women found that not only were men with three or more wives more likely to engage in extramarital sex and were at greater risk of contracting sexual diseases and infecting their wives than men with one or two wives. Thus, women were at greater risk from men with three or more wives both as their wives and as extramarital sexual partners than from men with one or two wives (Mitsunaga, et al 2005).

Studies have also found that children from polygamous families may be at a greater risk of several harmful effects.

- For example, there is considerable research that children of polygamous families experience a higher incidence of marital conflict, family violence, and family disruptions than do children of monogamous families’ (Elbedour, et al 2002).

-Moreover, children from polygamous marriages are at a greater risk of both behavioural and developmental problems (Elbedour, et al 2003).
-There is also some evidence that young women from polygamous families perform less well in school than those in monogamous families (Elbedour, et al 2000).

-In addition, the Utah Supreme Court has recently stated that polygamy ‘often coincides with crimes targeting women and children[, including] incest, sexual assault, statutory rape, and failure to pay child support’ (Strasser 2008: 88-9).”

This body of evidence makes clear that there is at least a prima facie case to believe that polygamy is linked to an increased likelihood of several harmful effects. These effects impact upon all members of a polygamous family, although women are at the greatest risk.

Most importantly, this leads to a huge drain and burden on the social security network. And there is the inequity among citizens.

@ masood

you state “The Qur’an is prone to interpretation in many many ways and can’t be considered a good source for legislation,” that, my friend, is kufr. Plase know that The Holy Qur’an is the SUPREME source of legislation as it is from Allah . There is no difference of opinion on that. You should be very careful what you say because without knowing it you could be committing great sins.

you also say: “I don’t need Islam to tell me what to do in every moment of my day” What do you do then, make it up as you go along? your words are worrying. I know non Muslims who say the same things, please be very careful…

@Hamza

Fortunately for me, I don’t look to other people for certificates of being a good muslim. Your pronounciations of kufr or shirk to me is water off a duck’s back.

The Qur’an is a great source of spiritual guidance, not legislation. I don’t want to live in a Sharia-driven society and I will never support one. Why ? Because it’s good on paper, but every implementation so far has not worked.

When there is an example of a country that has created a great society based on Sharia and has all happy people because of this, I will consider it. Not until then.

You say” What do you do then, make it up as you go along?”

Yes, I use my common sense. Like I said, I’m a human being and capable of decision making. I use the Qur’an for spiritual guidance, and my common sense to live in the world. It’s really easy.

If non-muslims say things, let them say. Laissez faire, I say.

The problem with your argument is that we follow the law of the land. The only way to get around this is a social contract with the govt, so that one group can get special laws(aka shariah).

And in fact the last caliphates(ottomans) outlawed polygamy at certain times because there was no point in having it, when you had equal number of men and women. And when the male population dropped it was re-introduced.

Also even the quran, it says something along the lines of “if you can treat them justly”. That means that a means to guarantee that abuse isn’t being done in polygamous relationships is needed before you can make them legal. And until that happens you can’t make any argument for it to be legal.

Finally i actually know one sister who almost left the fold(and according to the more takfirites she has) because of the polygamy experiences she had. Indeed its interesting for people to choose an action that is legal (islamically) but not a fard by any opinion, over preventing harm/oppression/people leaving the fold.

PS. remember when two people call each other kaffir, one of them is.

salam Philip

I have never called anyone here a kafir, far from it actually. I said that the words used were words of kufr which is very different, it means they were were “words” of disbelief.

Allah says: “He who disbelieves in Allah after his having believed, not he who is compelled while his heart is at rest on account of faith, but he who opens (his) breast to disbelief– on these is the wrath of Allah , and they shall have a grievous chastisement.” (An-Nahl: 106)

There is a big difference between a person uttering words of disbelief just as a matter of lip service and uttering them out of full conviction. I believe bro Masood is a good Muslim with strong conviction on faith, and I am sure he regards himself as that too. I was pointing out that the words he used were unfortunate and were actually words of disbelief. Those words do not take him out of the fold of Islam at all and i never intended to suggest that they did.

http://www.islamicweb.com/beli.....ention.htm

I agree with what you wrote on the whole, however, where I slightly disagree is that whilst we do follow the law of the land here in the UK we should not be prevented from having more than one wife if we are willing to adhere to the conditions Alllah and His Rasul (saw) have set. Now, presently, Islamic marriages are not recognised by the state as valid therefore Muslims are not committing a crime. Moreover, we cannot have one law for one and a different one for another. If sodomites and lesbians are allowed to marry, and men can have more than one girlfriend, and married men can commit adultry with more than one woman, then allowing Muslims to practice this divine law should be allowed in my opinion.

You assume there is a consensus among all muslims that Sharia is desirable. I would argue against it.

I am quite happy to live under a common civil code that applies equally to people of all races and religions. And there are many many muslims like me.

And again, practices such as polygamy are perceived as primitive in most of the world. If muslims are not viewed as progressive, then this perception is partly because some people in the community will support ideas such as polygamy. It’s like this – if you stand near a place that stinks, people will assume that you stink as well.
The muslim community needs to be seen as positive and progressive and supportive of modern values. Then you will see acceptance. This is human nature.

Hey, have you seen her real views on Polygamy in the Mail on Sunday 13th September 2009! (ie the poor threatened woman her husband divorced by mail in Pakistan)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nice blunt article about a lady who claims to represent something she knows nothing about. I don't like people who don't stand for their ground. Even a rat has more respect.

Yeah? Why don't men give birth junior? As far as I know, your arguing muslim v non-muslim arguments. So first go and check your religion's basics before discussing polygamy etc. Islam is for all of time as far as I know from Muslims. So now you're not standing your ground either. Put ur picture up with the fat chick up there. You probably bored so want to argue. I wont be back to read these irrational comments, because they are irrational. If anyone is reading these comments, don't take them seriously. Polygamy is a must for the benefit of women AND men AND children. otherwise all you'll see is bastards.

The real Warsi:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/fem.....131…